Friday,
May 23, 2008 at 8:46am
I
just got done watching a documentary hosted by Dr. Robert Beckford
here
which attempts to investigate the real story behind the actual Jesus.
I must say that I don’t understand people like Dr. Beckford and I
disagree with his approach to the question. In case you’re not as
interested in watching as I was the run down is Dr. Beckford talking
with heads of Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism and finding out where
their stories and notions about Jesus intersect with what we’re all
brought up to learn as matter of fact. He also goes to Egypt and
reports on the stories and depictions of Osiris and later of Mithras
and they’re commonalities as well. To be fair Dr. Beckford appears
to be genuinely sincere in his beliefs and has devoted much of his
time and understanding towards seeing how the teachings of Jesus can
breed peace and love. That said, I don’t believe he accurately
portrays how the world views the question, nor they’re immediate
unwillingness to take the pervasive, but thoughtful, road Beckford
would prescribe. I also believe he does a disservice to those healthy
ideals which can stand on their own merits without being bestowed
from a deity.
The fact of the matter is that, the 1/5th of
the world that thinks Jesus was a Muslim prophet, does not accept
anything that any semi to mainstream Christian would try to convey to
them. It is one thing to talk with a Muslim intellectual and wade
through borderline misleading questions, and quite another to think
they’re ready to accept Jesus’ teachings alone and begin that
personal relationship. They do not think he was the son of God, let
alone a manifestation of God, so hyping up that the Muslim’s
believe he was taken up to heaven as a prophet who had a fake
crucified in his place seems disingenuous. Of course there are always
the struggling fringe groups who try to balance their heritage with
the message of Jesus, but their failing track record does not lend
credence to the culture lightening up on their ideas about Jesus.
When talking to the Buddhists, Beckford tried to say
something like “When I read something from the Buddha that
parallels with Jesus, I’m kind of following Jesus through the
Buddha” in an enthusiastic tone. The monk could only squeamishly
smile and say that he could respect that if its truly how Beckford
wanted to look at things. I think there is a tragic flaw in trying to
take your perhaps awesomely optimistic and pretty worldview and
convince everybody just how awesomely optimistic they could be if
they were only as understanding as you. By going out and trying to
show that he is a “Christian” in whatever all inclusive sense he
holds, he low-balls those who’s faith was perhaps solidified on one
of those stories that now has been shown to tread through many
cultures. He is a perfect representation of someone who can
rationalize anything and still maintain that he is a Christian even
when he probably understands more of the particulars than many of us
would ever care to hear about. Now wouldn’t the world be a better
place if everyone could just get as informed and uplifted by the
method Beckford has chosen to stay secure in his faith? I think yes
and no.
If one can’t just believe in the ideas of love and
compassion alone, then what good are the ideas? It goes back to the
Euthyphro dilemma from my ethics class. Are ideas holy because of
some innate property or are they holy because the gods say so? If it
just “is” holy then why do we need a god to tell us so, if the
gods have to deem it as such then what’s to stop them from deeming
anything holy? How do we decide between two conflicting “holinesses”
when they come from the same source? This issue arises any time you
deem it necessary to introduce God into your logic. Do you honestly
believe there are lessons that can only be handed to us, despite the
wealth of knowledge we’ve tapped into by studying history,
philosophy, and science? Apes are the only species that murder.
There’s obviously no lesson to be learned by looking at the rest of
the animal spectrum. The business of equivocating those methods most
conducive to survival with your personal ideas about those methods
most conducive to survival always lose against the “extra you”
that is fighting for them. I personally was digging on what the
Buddhist guy was saying when he noted that there is no one who wants
to be unhappy and from that standpoint is where we should start when
trying to spread any message. From no divine agenda or wishy washy
perspective they manage to achieve the same “levels of
consciousness” and teach rival messages that you simply can’t
disagree with if you are a healthy human being. You don’t have to
believe anything about Buddha to state you don’t want to suffer and
like to be happy. If you don’t know the value of sitting and
thinking I’m amazed you’ve made it far enough to read my blog.
While the message from the documentary is that of an
interconnectedness that may help facilitate understanding and
negotiation between cultures, I seem to have seen something more
simple. History is a series of events heavily influenced by countless
forces and motivations. One universal motivation of a struggling
rational race would be understanding and tribal cohesiveness. You
really need to pretend like you know nothing about the world to
appreciate the kind of mind people had when they heard about magical
saviors and divine beings. When this super secret of all secrets
tells you something, like proselytize and convert, you're damn well
going to do it. When back then, just as now, you believe there is one
overriding central message that spearheads your idea, and those messy
details can remain as such, it is easy to understand why the world
religions have many points of parallels yet remain in utter defiance
of each other. People who feel an injustice or live in poverty are
more than prepped and ready to accept a message from anyone preaching
love and eternal happiness , even if it has to happen after they’re
dead. Is it any wonder today why most missionaries go to the most
desolate and unhappy places on earth to get their point across?
When “facts” about the life of Jesus are just presented
as truth because “we were all brought up to understand it this way”
I have a problem. Given that I’ve read and watched things that
undermine Jesus ever living the life depicted in the bible, it then
turns me off to hear “just like when Jesus came to Jerusalem and
caused a ruckus….just like when Jesus’ birth had such and such,
etc” because I know they are taken as matter-of-fact and not
necessarily documented truth. With that in mind, how do you expect to
convey this love and faith shtick if lies beyond this barrier of
convoluted Jesus? Keep in mind it goes well beyond factual
discrepancies about his character as well. I think it serves as an
act of intellectual dishonesty to think Jesus is the only way,
because it effectively denies the millions of atheists and
agnostics(technically atheists anyway), who are fully aware of love,
happiness, and perhaps faith without divine prompting. The thing I
posted about the Christian sub-culture seemed to piss of a few of my
Christian readers, but do you guys not see that anything put in the
way of the basic human happiness principals, be it Jesus’ name or
message or whatever, is damaging in itself? I want the Christian’s
to just say “I’m going to love you” instead of saying “you’re
my bother/sister in Christ from which follows I love you.” They’ve
just managed to use him as an excuse, built a little Jesus wall
between them and who they’re talking to, but still try to take on
the connotative punch of the word love. Instead of “Christ taught”
how about “I think” and you’ll know for sure whether you’re
talking to someone about things that matter to you and them, and not
persuading them to suck up and cave under any guilt they have
regarding their ideas about God.
I don’t ask people why they
are Christian or get into long and, trust me, quite frustrating
discussions with people to hear the same spiel over and over again
about Jesus or the bible; I try to learn about the person who has
hopefully “chosen” to adopt their belief and why. I don’t want
their catch phrases. If it turns out that its simply about them being
happy, then who’s really right when describing that person? Me for
saying that it seems rather simple to avoid family issues, not having
a vast amount of knowledge about it, and feeling good around a group
of singing or happy people would foster a belief in the “truth”
of some religion. Am I wrong for thinking that an entire culture
where kids are raised watching celebrities thank God, saying dinner
and bedtime prayers, and hearing constant biblical references in our
dialogue would jar them as well? Just maybe the idea of hell helped
someone grow in their faith here or there. Or is it more likely that
they are filled with a holy spirit, loved by Jesus, talked to in
prayer, and therefore it lends credence to the truth behind what they
“know” about Jesus and their religion? No one is denying the
impact of religion or the messages conveyed, but to deny an
understanding of desperate humanity, and ultimately an understanding
of yourself, that would be the biggest “sin” of all.
So
ultimately, Beckman attempts to blur the lines and undermine
religious distinctions by showing how they can all mesh around the
central figure of Jesus or events associated with his life. You don’t
put out a fire with kerosene. While I’d love for those barriers to
vanish, the cure for religious fundamentalists and divisive beliefs
is not “religion light” or a Jesus patch. If I’m going to
respect someone who takes up a cause prompted by their faith, but
more importantly, if they hope to do or be anything that matters,
they need to show me who they are and not what Christ tells them to
be, and then work from there. Shake off the dogma and take up an
identity. It’s the human message and human understanding that needs
to be shared.
Updated
about 6 months ago
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
12:39pm on May 23rd, 2008
"I
think it serves as an act of intellectual dishonesty to think
Jesus is the only way, because it effectively denies the
millions of atheists and agnostics(technically atheists
anyway), who are fully aware of love, happiness, and perhaps
faith without divine prompting."
Of all the things
in the bible i disagree with, this idea you bring up here is
the one i struggle with the most. I don't know if I've told you
before, but I'm christian..ish.. sorta. I disagree with the
bible constantly, question my faith at every turn, and
constantly try to figure out why the hell i'm religious when
every fiber of my being screams at me about how illogical and
irrational it is.
That being said, the idea that just
because you don't believe in a guy getting tortured to death
and brought back to life, that you're a bad person and deserve
to burn in hell and have eternal torment has pissed me off as
far back as i can remember. |
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
12:56pm on May 23rd, 2008
If God is
supposed to be so caring and compassionate and omnipotent as
I'm supposed to believe, why the hell can't he judged people
based on their character.. like i mentioned in one of your last
rants, i really find that a person who is good just for the
purpose of being good, and not because of a religious doctrine,
is really.. good-er then damn near every christian i can think
of. And considering that, if there is a God and a heave and a
hell, why do the good-er deserve to burn in hell because they
can't believe in magic??? |
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in response
to billy, EVERYONE deserves to burn in hell, no matter how good
or bad they are. and it is only by God's mercy that we are
saved. yeah it sounds crazy and very unfair, and i've struggled
with the whole concept of God choosing who to save and who not
to save, but ultimately we have to trust God and the fact that
he knows what he's doing even if we don't understand it. that
is what faith is. you have to get past yourself and your doubts
about God and completely trust him with your life. |
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
8:18pm on May 23rd, 2008
I can see
why not everyone would deserve eternal peace bliss etc, but to
think that every single person deserves to burn in hell seems..
ridiculous to me. I know i'm suppose to trust in god etc.
etc... but it's hard to do, considering i'm basing all of my
trust on a book thats many thousands of years old, has been
translated and transcribed so many time, no doubt influenced by
other cultures, and by the mere fact it was written down by
humans, HAS to be flawed in some way or another. It's
impossible to trust in it completely, yet i'm supposed to. I
don't know what to believe and what not too, and i have to tell
you, god doesn't seem to be giving me any answers...
Now, by
the very nature of the bible being flawed in someway, i can't
say for a FACT that god knows what he's doing, or if he's even
doing anything. For all i know, satan himself has had a hand in
writing pieces of the bible, and man has put it together
unwittingly.
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
8:21pm on May 23rd, 2008
Don't get
me wrong, i'm not trying to bash your faith or say the bible is
full of shit. I'm not saying that the bible was written by
satan or isn't in fact the written word of god. What i'm
saying, rather, is that i can't know for SURE what to believe
and what not too, and these are some of the reasons and
questions i have. I admit, i'm jealous of your faith because
these thoughts consume a lot of my time and frustrate me
constantly. |
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
8:24pm on May 23rd, 2008
Anyway, all
that was a little off topic of the original note. Ii agree (if
i fully understand what you wrote) that this guy trying to
filter everything through jesus is kind of silly, and that
people truly need to THINK for themselves. |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
3:23am on May 24th, 2008
I don't
know why you would be jealous of her faith Mr. Bowman. I
personally find it a lot more satisfying to think about these
things, come to conclusions, those conclusions not including a
god do not detract from my happiness in anyway and I don't feel
like someone claiming faith has "1 upped" me or
anything. It was rather uplifting to read and learn about the
origins of the bible and why and how people can come to believe
in such things. What I do know is that whole burn in hell or
love me scenario, if true, send me to hell. I refuse to exhibit
hypocritical love and trust.
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Nick
P.
wroteat
3:28am on May 24th, 2008
And what a
terrible message to tell people. Hey, your depressed and need
someone, well guess what, it doesn't end there you also need to
burn forever because some bitch picked an apple. lol. It's
rather ridiculous to just spell out in words, ehem the bible.
Cara you just became a shining example of how the religious
crap detracts from the simple ideas of love and compassion
alone. You could be actually effective if you just scaled down
the extra b/s christianity has weighted you with and said
"whether you choose to abandon rational thought for faith
or not, this is what I can do for you."
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Nick
P.
wroteat
3:29am on May 24th, 2008
One final
note Mr. Bowman. There are several sites that have collaborated
all those flaws and ridiculous passages online if you'd like to
get a real scope of how much people ignore or don't know about
when claiming the truth of it.
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
11:17am on May 24th, 2008
Perhaps
jealously isn't the right way to express it... but to be that
sure of where one stands.. instead of being in constant
conflict and uncertainty... it doesn't matter as i never be
able to abandon my rational thinking.
I agree with you whole
heartedly on the 'love me or burn in hell' bit.. it really
seems to completely contradict most of the messages in the
bible, and i'm quite sure hell is the only reason many
christians believe what they do..
Send me those sites when
you get a chance.. i'd love to read through and find out how
much of what people claim as truth is as messed up as i
speculate.
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you can't
just believe some websites though. you think i'm an idiot
because i base my faith in God on a book, the Bible, but you
base your lack of faith in God on some books/websites.
love
and compassion is not ALL what christianity is about. there's
more to it than that. christianity has not weighed me down with
bs. don't tell me what i should have said.
i know there is
lot of confusion in life, but you CAN know for sure what to
believe in. and i'm glad you're taking the time to think about
it and not believe mindlessly and blindly. pray that God will
show himself to you. and search with all you are for the truth,
the honest and complete truth. i'll be praying for you, both of
you. |
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Billy
Bowman
(Bloomington, IN) wroteat
5:58pm on May 24th, 2008
I never
said i'd believe what i read on those websites, as like you
stated yourself, it could have the same flaws, but none the
less i'd be interested in reading it. I've prayed he'd show me
SOMETHING, anything, that would give me some sense of going one
way or the other for many many years, but i've not seen
anything, nor heard any response at all. But thank you, i
suppose, and i will continue searching for the truth and
perhaps one day i will find it... i'm not hopeful though, all
things considered.. |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
6:00pm on May 24th, 2008
You can't
base a "lack of faith." Why don't you believe in
unicorns...the evidence is not forthcoming nor convincing. The
fact that love and compassion is not ALL christianity is about
is exactly its problem. You are so disrespectful to say "pray
that god will show himself to you." Do you think I just
don't get it? Is my knowledge and truth and reasoning so stupid
that I need to appeal to something I don't believe in to cope?
Do not pray for me, how are prayers supposed to influence free
will anyway? Glad I'm taking the time like I have spent the
last 3 years beating this subject into the ground. Everything
you say could be said by someone of any faith yet simply
because you say it know its a better argument or better
intentioned? |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
6:05pm on May 24th, 2008
As far as
those sites are concerned, all they do is quote the bible. You
don't have to go to a site to read the book yourself. Await the
endless "keep it context!" charges like mere reading
is beyond the capacity of the unbeliever as well. If praying
God will show himself to you worked, he would've done it back
when I tried it. Why do you deny that it has been done and
tried before? Perhaps I'm so adamant because I felt absolutely
NOTHING and had dreams and hopes all centered around a
relationship with God and it all turned to shit the less I
started doing and the more I started praying. Give me the
credit of having bought into the crap long enough to have a
reasoned and, excuse me, extremely well established position
from which to live my life. |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
6:11pm on May 24th, 2008
And when
have I ever called you an idiot? Misinformed, ignorant of the
facts, and unable to answer my endless accusations and
arguments sure. You choose to take on the victim position.
Don't put words in my mouth to try and distance yourself from
the real conversation I'm trying to hold. My whole argument is
what people should have said and I don't think I'm full of shit
for believing in the simple facts of love and compassion alone.
It's when I get barraged with all the bullshit from religious
doctrine that makes me want to forgo giving a shit because how
could anyone understand me when all they want to think about is
how terrible and sinful they are? |
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nick, i in
no way intended to be disrespectful to you or anyone else. i'm
sorry if you took it that way. i'm not trying to tell you what
to do, and i know you never called me an idiot.
but don't
you think, if you seriously did prove christianity wrong, that
you should tell everyone your argument and then we'd all
realize that we're wrong? if you're so right, if you have all
this proof against christianity, then why don't more people
believe you and drop their religion?
why can't you base a
lack of faith?
and yes, i will still pray for you, whether
you want me to or not and regardless of if you think it
''works'' or not.
i'm sorry, i didn't ever mean to
disrespect you or insult you or argue with you or anything
else. |
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and yes,
the title probably is the only thing that would make someone
read it. |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
3:43am on May 25th, 2008
It isn't
about "proving Christianity wrong" so to speak, its
more about making people realize there are better ways to think
about life than behave or burn in hell. What the Christians
don't realize is that the arguments of today started at the
advent of the religion, and have yet to be answered. There are
people with PHD's who fully understand the arguments and fully
understand they can't answer, but still feel secure replying
"it's about faith." There is also a difference
between discussing historical facts or inferences from the
bible and whether or not a god does in fact exist. There have
been many people to drop their faith after reading The God
Delusion alone and appear in Converts corner on his website. |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
3:48am on May 25th, 2008
You can't
base a lack of faith because it's trying to establish a
position in a void. I can't start an argument "this is
what I don't believe and I'm going to fight for it." Put
yourself in my position having spent countless hours watching
and listening to debates, watching lectures on evolution,
watching documentaries and lectures on the bible, getting into
months long conversations with people who've told me absolutely
scary things that you can only say from a religious mindset,
emailing priests/laymen to get the same tired responses, and
most importantly reading every book I have listen on my profile
which I frequently suggest and offer to people only to be
confronted with laziness and pull cord catch phrases. |
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Nick
P.
wroteat
4:03am on May 25th, 2008
I think its
an absolute disgrace for people to ever feel like they have all
the answers when I personally make the effort to understand why
they are so wrong. When I present someone with a book long
explanation for a handful of things they think they know what
they're talking about, it'd maybe be nice for them to at least
humor me and hit the library. If you think the book is bullshit
or prone to bias, find me a review, or ten, and make a case for
why you shouldn't have to waste your time. The whole point is
to get out of this tepid "belief in questioning"
mode, move towards actual answers, and when you don't know
something, admit it.
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i never
said i know everything, and i certainly don't. and yeah i guess
you're right, about the stuff i don't know, ''it's about
faith''. crazy or not, it IS about faith.
ok i will
seriously do this. tell me a book to read (a shorter one
please) that the library has, and i will go get it and read it
and tell you what i think. it's almost summer so i pretty much
have nothing to do, so i'll have time.
and here is a book i
recommend to you, ''the case for christ'' by Lee strobel. i
realize that right away it screams ''christian!!!'' but hear me
out, it's a good one, and i'd like to hear your opinion about
it.
have you taken philosophy at college yet? i'm planning
on taking it this fall, and maybe it will enlighten me.
that
is all, have a good day. |
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