Friday,
July 31, 2009 at 8:54pm
I'm not sure I believe in apologizes, or maybe, at least not in what they are supposed to do or how they function. Your either apologizing for doing something that was an accident, or something intentional. An accident is a by product of doing things. They are expected, in that they do happen frequently, and they could happen to anybody. Tagging "I'm sorry" to something that happens at random or because we've yet to master how and why things move doesn't seem to cut down on the frequency of accidents. Then you have the intentional action. By preemptively thinking that it was the time to do or say whatever you did, based on how you perceived the context, out it came. Then if you apologize your rescinding the fact that you made a conscious decision. Your basically stuck to being either a hypocrite or irrational.
I find that most of the time I'm asked or prompted to say I'm sorry about something, it's for doing something completely opposite to what I thought I was doing, or for how someone else reacted to a situation we both had a part in. I can't help but phrase things anymore like this, "I'm sorry you perceived things this way because that wasn't the intention" or "I apologize your feelings have come out angry in this situation.” I imagine this comes of rather condescending. As if I'm patting the other person on the head and saying "now now, too bad your just incapable of handling your feelings." Hand in hand with that is when someone does something to me or my things, I'm not exactly jumping to hear or even caring if they apologize. The thing happened, there is a choice to be made in the wake of it. No common courtesy of our language adds or detracts from the fact of a necessary decision.
The only thing that really matters after something goes wrong or there is a discrepancy, is how the parties act from that point on. If someone breaks something of mine, and they bypass the apology and go straight to buying another one, I'm happy that we've both recognized the problem and agree on the method to fix it. There is no need for ass kissing or guilt tripping. This last altercation with my old manager would do exactly that. I'd be making myself out to be the bad guy, granting his thoughts that I was trying to be deliberately offensive, and having to maintain my from thenceforth humbled attitude in his presence. Does that seem right to you? I've tried to handle situations with people I've known for much less time and have much weaker rapport with more respectfully than how he decided to react to joking around. Honesty and progress comes from explaining and understanding those different perceptions, not leveraging them against each other.
So, if an apology does something more for you that I'm incapable of picking up on, please tell me. I either do bad things, or bad things inevitably happen in my presence. One I can't deny or take back that I was a rational actor, the other is a product of our mere existence. Your apology doesn't fix anything, it only perpetuates a frequently one-sided and often flawed perception of how things transpired, whether you believe in that perception or not.
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about 7 months ago · Comment · LikeUnlike
I’ll
agree that I get annoyed in cases where people won’t accept a
solution and demand countless apologies – once you solve the
problem, you should move on. And in cases where people misunderstand
or get mad for reasons beyond your control or comprehension, it is
idiotic to think you should grovel at their feet, begging for
forgiveness. But in other cases, an apology is more of just a verbal
problem-solver. You say that if someone breaks something and then
goes and buys a new something, an apology is unnecessary because
you’ve solved the problem. I agree that it’s the actions
afterward that prove whether you’re really sorry or not, but in
some cases, an apology is the only problem-solver you have. In the
case of words, you don’t have that physical act to make things
better – the only way to acknowledge and fix the problem is through
more words. That’s where “I’m sorry” comes in.
July
31, 2009 at 9:53pm ·
To
me, the point of wanting an apology isn... See More’t because I
want the person to “ass-kiss” or I want them on some sort of
guilt trip, but because I just want them to acknowledge that what
they did hurt me in some way. Someone could totally misunderstand
your intention, and that’s not really your fault, but once you know
that it doesn’t mean what you thought it might mean, you should
keep that in mind for the future and not repeat whatever you did to
that person. I don’t get mad at people for the actual unintentional
gaffe itself, but the point is, if you don’t acknowledge it, what’s
to say that you won’t do it again?
And if you do something that ends offensively, not because the person took it the wrong way, but because you didn’t think things through and it really was a stupid maneuver, you should own up to that fact. Everyone makes stupid mistakes and when you have a lapse in judgment, you should apologize for not thinking clearly.
And if you do something that ends offensively, not because the person took it the wrong way, but because you didn’t think things through and it really was a stupid maneuver, you should own up to that fact. Everyone makes stupid mistakes and when you have a lapse in judgment, you should apologize for not thinking clearly.
July
31, 2009 at 9:54pm ·
You
can even intentionally hurt someone or say something about them that
was taken in entirely the way you meant it, and then feel badly about
it later. That doesn’t make you a hypocrite – it makes you a
human being that can think things through and change its mind… it’s
silly to think that you think the exact same way about the same
situations at different times – it’s even sillier to try to do
so.
July
31, 2009 at 9:54pm ·
What's
to say you won't' do it again? Nothing, that's part of my problem
with it.
"But in other cases, an apology is more of just a verbal problem-solver."
Which ones? You say "in the case of words (the only way) is through more words." I don't understand this. Words, no matter the situation, don't actually do anything themselves. They are little than sounds we choose to react (or not) to.... See More
Apologizing for not thinking clearly implies that there was a common "clearer" thought process readily apparent to everyone involved, which rarely ever seems to be the case.
"But in other cases, an apology is more of just a verbal problem-solver."
Which ones? You say "in the case of words (the only way) is through more words." I don't understand this. Words, no matter the situation, don't actually do anything themselves. They are little than sounds we choose to react (or not) to.... See More
Apologizing for not thinking clearly implies that there was a common "clearer" thought process readily apparent to everyone involved, which rarely ever seems to be the case.
July
31, 2009 at 10:33pm ·
"I
just want them to acknowledge that what they did hurt me in some
way."
This I think speaks to the heart of the matter. Unless it's physical hurt, I can't justify believing anybody but myself allowed for any hurt. I suppose many people don't play it this way. I'm quick to blame myself for letting things either get to me, or engaging with the ... See Moreperson in the first place, or not being perceptive enough to judge things correctly. I don't hold others accountable for any pain that isn't physical, and find it hard to believe people would let met affect them as deeply as they'd claim.
This I think speaks to the heart of the matter. Unless it's physical hurt, I can't justify believing anybody but myself allowed for any hurt. I suppose many people don't play it this way. I'm quick to blame myself for letting things either get to me, or engaging with the ... See Moreperson in the first place, or not being perceptive enough to judge things correctly. I don't hold others accountable for any pain that isn't physical, and find it hard to believe people would let met affect them as deeply as they'd claim.
July
31, 2009 at 10:33pm ·
"you
should apologize for not thinking clearly."
This could be an important point too. If I'm not thinking "clearly" it would have to be prompted by sleep deprivation or some sort of yet to be experienced trauma. I think it is why I want to think it a viable excuse to apologize, but don't really think enough situations actually happen that make it... See More appropriate. I find myself always thinking, if for lack of a better word "clearly" whether I want to or not, so hearing others claim they weren't doesn't sit well with me.
This could be an important point too. If I'm not thinking "clearly" it would have to be prompted by sleep deprivation or some sort of yet to be experienced trauma. I think it is why I want to think it a viable excuse to apologize, but don't really think enough situations actually happen that make it... See More appropriate. I find myself always thinking, if for lack of a better word "clearly" whether I want to or not, so hearing others claim they weren't doesn't sit well with me.
July
31, 2009 at 10:34pm ·
"it...
See More’s silly to think that you think the exact same way about
the same situations at different times – it’s even sillier to try
to do so."
This I really don't think I agree with. Aside from situations as a child where your reactions may never warrant any sort of rational discorse or reaction, I'm hardly ever swayed or pursuaded that a situation was different until new information is learned or added about that situation that I couldn't have known at the time. Even in situations where something "bad" was going on, but there was enough "good" to perpetuate it, I was still cognizant of both sides and can revisit the how's and why's long after the fact.
This I really don't think I agree with. Aside from situations as a child where your reactions may never warrant any sort of rational discorse or reaction, I'm hardly ever swayed or pursuaded that a situation was different until new information is learned or added about that situation that I couldn't have known at the time. Even in situations where something "bad" was going on, but there was enough "good" to perpetuate it, I was still cognizant of both sides and can revisit the how's and why's long after the fact.
July
31, 2009 at 10:34pm ·
But
you admit that new information could be made available. Human beings
aren't omnipotent. And if you learn new things, you shouldn't be
afraid to admit that you can change your mind. I know way too many
people who think they know all about “both sides... See More” or
“all” of a situation when I know that they are seriously lacking
in important facts and insights. It happens way too often for me to
believe that there are more than a few instances where anybody can
say that they are positive that they will never change their mind.
I’m not saying that I don’t have my own passionate beliefs that I
can’t conceive ever changing, but, to me, the only way you could
possibly never change your mind is if you bury your head in the sand
and refuse to acknowledge any new information. You did agree that
you’re not persuaded “until new information is learned” so you
do think that this is possible – which was my point, so I don’t
really know why you’re disagreeing with that.
July
31, 2009 at 11:42pm ·
Plus,
I’ve personally experienced many incidents where, even though I
knew something, I had to go over it and examine it in different ways
for a long time before something finally clicked. Ok, you may just
say I’m slow lol… but I doubt I’m the only person who can gain
new insights through sitting and thinking for a long time.
July
31, 2009 at 11:42pm ·
I...
See More’m guessing that you’re leaning toward the old adage of
“Nobody can make you feel inferior except you” or something to
that extent, and I’ll agree that it’s mostly true… I guess I’m
thinking more of people you know – not strangers. A stranger or
someone you barely know shouldn’t really care what you say. But in
the case of friends, it’s harder to say that you shouldn’t care
what they say – in fact, if you don’t care about their opinions,
you probably don’t care about them, and then why are you friends? I
just know that in the past, I’ve been hurt by friends who didn’t
act like friends. I don’t think it’s crazy to blame someone who
claims to be a friend for not acting like one.
July
31, 2009 at 11:43pm ·
People
do things that they know they shouldn... See More’t – things that
they know could be hurtful – just because they didn’t think it
all the way through or simply because they decided to be selfish.
Just because an act is conscious doesn’t necessarily mean it was a
good decision. And if you act like a crappy friend, you should own up
to it. Of course, everyone has different standards for what
constitutes a “good” or “crappy” friend but I’m casting
that aside right now and just making my argument under the assumption
that if you’re friends with someone, you both have similar ideas of
what this means.
July
31, 2009 at 11:43pm ·
I
definitely think that apologies are over-demanded for little
misunderstandings that shouldn... See More’t be so blown out of
proportion, which is why I don’t get seriously mad very often… I
know that the majority of the time I may get offended, it wasn’t
the person’s intent. But there are times when I look at a friend’s
actions and think to myself that they couldn’t possibly not have
known that what they were doing was shitty. If they can admit it, I’m
not going to cast them aside forever. Everyone makes mistakes –
everyone acts selfishly from time to time – everyone, even if they
are normally clear thinkers, will have moments when they don’t
think all the way through to the end of their actions even if they
should have, and they end up screwing up. I guess my whole point
behind the “clear thinking” thing is that human beings are not
perfect. *Everyone* will act less-than-admirably from time to time,
and you shouldn’t be too proud to admit it.
July
31, 2009 at 11:43pm ·
I...
See More’m not saying I don’t see where you’re coming from in
not liking apologies. A lot of apologies are unnecessary because of
overreactions. Personally, I feel like I’ve apologized way too many
times for things that were not my fault, or made to feel guilty
because my apology wasn’t “good enough” but I didn’t know
what else to do. Apologies shouldn’t be doled out like candy at a
parade for every little infraction, but in the instances where human
beings end up acting like human beings, they should be able to admit
to it.
July
31, 2009 at 11:43pm ·
Of
course, once an apology is made, the person who... See More’s upset
shouldn’t hold it over their head because that defeats the purpose
of peaceful reconciliation… my point is that apologies can help if
both sides are realistic about what saying sorry can do – It can’t
take back what was said or done (I guess this is a common
misconception of what an apology is supposed to be – “I take it
back” – that’s impossible, you already did it) – It’s
purpose is to make the upset party feel like their friend didn’t
mean for what they said or did to cause such damage and thus keeps
the friendship from deteriorating. I guess if you can just say “What
I did was shitty” or “I didn’t realize it was going to end that
way” and the other person can be mature enough to take that for
what it is, an actual profession of “I’m sorry” isn’t
necessary. But so few people will actually come right out and admit
that they made a mistake.
July
31, 2009 at 11:44pm ·
If
you can actually own up to not being perfect, then I guess you’re
right – apologies are unnecessary. But to a lot of people, saying a
set phrase like “I’m sorry” is easier than admitting their own
faults.
And this was way more posts than I thought it would be... lol
And this was way more posts than I thought it would be... lol
July
31, 2009 at 11:44pm ·
The
way you statement was framed was without the tip of the hat to new
information. On it's head, I disagreed with a person's inability to
hold the same thoughts about situations, let alone it being "sillier"
or even an effort to do so.
I don't contend there isn't much to be gained from sitting and thinking about a situation. The entirety of the ... See Morefacts of that situation will rarely ever be filled in, so mulling it over is purely the exercise of trying to rationalize something that caused you some distress. Still, the overall physiological effects and choices you make, are what put even the remotest semblance of and end to what you think happened.
I don't contend there isn't much to be gained from sitting and thinking about a situation. The entirety of the ... See Morefacts of that situation will rarely ever be filled in, so mulling it over is purely the exercise of trying to rationalize something that caused you some distress. Still, the overall physiological effects and choices you make, are what put even the remotest semblance of and end to what you think happened.
August
1, 2009 at 12:42am ·
I'm
friends with people who I share mutually beneficial relationships. It
isn't really a secret as to why so many go untalked to on facebook or
disappear as names in a list.
" I don’t think it’s crazy to blame someone who claims to be a friend for not acting like one."
Neither do I. This is where, as I stated, I'd start blaming myself for not seeing all the, usually more blatant than we'd like to admit, reasons that they weren't a friend before "they hurt me."... See More
"Just because an act is conscious doesn’t necessarily mean it was a good decision."
I'm sorry if I was unclear, but that's exactly what I was espousing in describing myself amidst a bad decision. We kind of drifted from talking about what an apology does or doesn't do, to how friends should relate and what constitutes a healthy relationship with one here.
" I don’t think it’s crazy to blame someone who claims to be a friend for not acting like one."
Neither do I. This is where, as I stated, I'd start blaming myself for not seeing all the, usually more blatant than we'd like to admit, reasons that they weren't a friend before "they hurt me."... See More
"Just because an act is conscious doesn’t necessarily mean it was a good decision."
I'm sorry if I was unclear, but that's exactly what I was espousing in describing myself amidst a bad decision. We kind of drifted from talking about what an apology does or doesn't do, to how friends should relate and what constitutes a healthy relationship with one here.
August
1, 2009 at 12:42am ·
"If
they can admit it, I’m not going to cast them aside forever."
See, to me, if they engage in it and, whether or not they apologize, I can't rationally defend where they were coming from, that's when they get cast aside. When someone acknowledges their fuck up, there is practically nothing you can do to know they are apologizing for anything more than your upset demeanor. This is exactly what I illuminate in my "apologies."
"everyone acts selfishly from time to time"... See More
I would argue they act selfishly all the time, but that's a different discussion.
"*Everyone* will act less-than-admirably from time to time, and you shouldn’t be too proud to admit it."
I must say this statement confuses me the most. I openly stated this in blog. Restating my point, it's not that they screw up or that they are too proud to admit it, it's that they are cognizant of screwing up, whether they want to claim "being too human" or not. The excuse I don't buy.
See, to me, if they engage in it and, whether or not they apologize, I can't rationally defend where they were coming from, that's when they get cast aside. When someone acknowledges their fuck up, there is practically nothing you can do to know they are apologizing for anything more than your upset demeanor. This is exactly what I illuminate in my "apologies."
"everyone acts selfishly from time to time"... See More
I would argue they act selfishly all the time, but that's a different discussion.
"*Everyone* will act less-than-admirably from time to time, and you shouldn’t be too proud to admit it."
I must say this statement confuses me the most. I openly stated this in blog. Restating my point, it's not that they screw up or that they are too proud to admit it, it's that they are cognizant of screwing up, whether they want to claim "being too human" or not. The excuse I don't buy.
August
1, 2009 at 12:43am ·
"It...
See More’s purpose is to make the upset party feel like their
friend didn’t mean for what they said or did to cause such damage
and thus keeps the friendship from deteriorating."
So there's much to say about this. One, "to make the upset party feel like their friend didn't mean for what they said" is exactly the cop-out I state when people claim to not be thinking before and during the statement. It could also be read as a way for the friend to passively lie to the other person for the sake of whatever they are getting from that relationship. I don't disagree that it can be used for diplomatic purposes or even as an initial flag perhaps that makes you think they are about to actually do something. To me, if a friendship is deteriorating, it's for many more significant and complicated reasons than one's inability to placate the other with platitudes.
So there's much to say about this. One, "to make the upset party feel like their friend didn't mean for what they said" is exactly the cop-out I state when people claim to not be thinking before and during the statement. It could also be read as a way for the friend to passively lie to the other person for the sake of whatever they are getting from that relationship. I don't disagree that it can be used for diplomatic purposes or even as an initial flag perhaps that makes you think they are about to actually do something. To me, if a friendship is deteriorating, it's for many more significant and complicated reasons than one's inability to placate the other with platitudes.
August
1, 2009 at 12:44am ·
"But
to a lot of people, saying a set phrase like “I’m sorry” is
easier than admitting their own faults."
And walah, more or less the point. It really goes back to honesty about your understanding or lack thereof. About what you are or aren't taking responsibility for. It's finding that necessary objective leap from the well of apologizes and placated feelings.
Facebook needs a better method for engaging discussions :).
And walah, more or less the point. It really goes back to honesty about your understanding or lack thereof. About what you are or aren't taking responsibility for. It's finding that necessary objective leap from the well of apologizes and placated feelings.
Facebook needs a better method for engaging discussions :).
August
1, 2009 at 12:45am ·
When
I look back on this, it looks like we just came full circle to both
agree on people admitting that they screw up and if they can do that,
there’s no need for the actual words “I’m sorry.”
I guess my thought process was more along the lines of most people
not being able to admit that they screwed up, so they need to settle
back onto the tried-and-durable apology. I honestly have not met many
people who can admit to stupid actions, so to me, the apology is the
only thing that they’re capable of and it’s better than them
screwing me over and never acknowledging it, thus leaving the doors
open for them to do it again because they never caught on that it’s
not ok.
I know! Wtf is up with this like 12 lines of text at a time bullshit? Gives me a headache.
I know! Wtf is up with this like 12 lines of text at a time bullshit? Gives me a headache.
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