Thursday,
March 19, 2009 at 11:42pm
Copied
from a blog, contents of which are not what I'm hoping to highlight.
Hannah Norton at 8:37am September 24
This has always been confusing to me as well. The best answer that I can come up with is: we won't completely understand this side of heaven, and that's where trust comes in.
But what I do understand is this: God is a God of Love and a God of Justice. He loves us so much that He's provided a way for everyone to go to heaven. But He also loves us so much that He gives us free will and is not going to impose His on us. So then each person in the world has a choice. We can choose to accept or reject His gift. If we accept it, we have forgiveness and peace with God. If we reject it, we cannot live in the presence of a Holy God because of His justice.
As for sovereignty and predestination. The Bible also says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I think his predestination (or forknowledge) is simply Him knowing before the foundation of the world who would choose Him and who would reject Him. ... Read More
That's whats helped me anyhow
Nick P. at 6:43pm October 5
I would say that hell is a way of "imposing" his will. Believe or burn make a choice? There is no freedom there.
For Hannah's sentence ""God is not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance" is an inherent gap in reasoning for me. If God wills something how can it not happen? If he wills you to repend, your repenting otherwise it wouldn't have its godly power.
Your note centers around a questions thats been asked for thousands of years and the most famous quote is this:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus
Andrew Sackett at 12:03pm March 18
Hey Ben,
God IS all loving and all caring. Regardless of what he does know and what he "chooses not to know", in some theories, he will always be there for those with faith in him. We cant even begin to imagine what he's like or what he will do next. We cannot know how he works and how he sometimes chooses not to work. To waste our lives searching for those questions without answers is complete foolishness.
What we do know is that God is present. Whether you want to try and blame that on coincidence or not, its true. And we also know that the name of Jesus Christ still holds tremendous power after 2000 years. We know that with pure faith in God, comes joy in the purest form. We know that faith in nothing often leads to bitter lonliness in countless people.... Read More
So that being said, stop trying to solve and understand God. Our minds are limited and are not made to understand anything that is unlimited. We cannot understand God, because if we could, He wouldnt be God.
Nick P. at 5:18pm March 18
"We cant even begin to imagine what he's like or what he will do next." "What we do know is that God is present."
You are a liar and you contradict yourself. Please fix this.
"We cannot know how he works and how he sometimes chooses not to work."... Read More
And yet your faith in jesus stemming from the bible, god's rule book, people like yourself tend to claim they "know god' in such a way.
Andrew Sackett at 5:23pm March 18
Please explain the "liar" title and the contradiction, none seems to be present to me. And please explain "people like yourself." You can disagree with me if you'd like, just do it clearly
Ben Cabe at 5:51pm March 18
haha wow I wrote this two years ago -- why the sudden comments? XD
I have partially, due to my own research and studies, acquired knowledge to answer this question and many others -- which I find far more fascinating. XD
Ben Cabe at 6:05pm March 18
...Also, when I wrote this I didn't do a good job of explaining or coming at it from every different angle -- I feel foolish when I read my words of any of my notes on facebook xD
I would write another, but I am going to save it for my book.
Nick P. at 8:49pm March 18
The contradiction: "We can't even begin to imagine what he's like" against "knowing" he is present. Your either lying about our ability to know what he's like, or about knowing that he is present.
I may have overstepped by not asking first if in fact in you believe in the bible and to what degree. Taking for granted you did based on your comment ... Read Moreabout jesus, I cited another example of your inherent contradiction by you trusting and/or knowing something about the god you stated "We can't even begin to imagine what he's like or what he will do next."
Andrew Sackett at 11:42am March 19
knowing that hes there but not knowing what he's like is not a contradiction, it may take a little extra to wrap your mind around it, but still makes perfect sense.
And yes, i believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and dont see anything that comes close to logically proving it wrong
Nick P. at 5:50pm March 19
Knowing something about your god would imply that his presence would at the very lease illicit some sort of tangible or describable feeling. To say you begin to imagine what he's like, is to barre yourself from even claiming "he's like a warm fuzzy feeling in my stomach" let alone going farther and using his "un-imaginability" to understand his ... Read Morerange of morally skewed acts in the bible.
I think if you haven't see anything that's come close to proving it wrong your simply lazy. Also, maybe haven't read the creation myths or, and this would be mind-blowing, think there was a global flood. If such is the case I'll state for the record to anybody reading my replies that I will know and appreciate the time I'm potentially wasting on someone who thinks those are logical precepts.
Andrew Sackett at 9:59pm March 19
and what do u believe in, that the world is billions of years old, and even though people have been around for many millions of years, they have failed to evolve to the point of even discovering fire for millions of years into their existence? A little far-fetched, and a bit more requiring in faith than even me believing in God creating the world ... Read Moreand loving us.
And I still dont quite get the explanation to the contradiction. Why is anything but the tangible believable to you? Why can't there be something that is not tangible, or explainable, just there. For example, anxiety is a general feeling that is not seen, and cannot be described and i havent heard one psychologist try and say that it doesnt exist. The psychologists can only see the effects of the anxiety, and yet still believe it. There are countless signs of God's presence here on earth, and to discredit those just because you dont understand the source doesnt make sense to me. The results are blatantly clear.
Nick P. at 11:06pm March 19
LOL, thank you for telling me all I need to know about you with your reply. No, I don't believe humans have been around millions of years, more so about 195,000.
I like how you utterly ignore what I presented to you and resorted to a very obtuse conjecture and attack on what it is I "believe." I don't have to "believe" in the age of the earth. It's a fact. A key word you'd do well to understand is evidence. It takes zero faith to accept a fact.
The fact that you still don't get the contradiction is yet another reason for me not to bother. I can't spell it out for you in any language but English. Try reading slower...?... Read More
Anxiety manifests in people's heart rate, sweat glands, brain activity, body movements, etc. It's isn't some ephemeral idea that' just "there" without evidence or reasons to call it anxiety. I will never understand how someone can tell me something can't be described then literally in the next sentence tell me it has effects.
Nick P. at 11:10pm March 19
Aw heck, for the lulz please tell us the evidence for your god's presence, but only if you tell me they aren't descriptions as well as explain how they are utterly impossible by natural means. :)
Andrew Sackett at 11:12pm March 19
God in his nature cant be described, but you can see his effects everywhere. The world for example. Do you really think such an intricate system of atoms, charges, entropy, cells, organisms, etc. was just there. I think it was a clear design by a being far above our realm of understanding.
Nick P. at 11:21pm March 19
You can't claim that there's a being beyond our understanding because you do indeed have a world which we can in fact understand.
Is it really that illogical to think something can be described in terms of how it effects the world around it? Invisible pink unicorns can't "really" be described in their nature. Why do I bring them up? What do they ... Read Morematter? They don't! And neither do your statements about your god. If invisible pink unicorns make leaves shake on trees, I'm going to think wind is more likely. Hell, maybe they created the earth too! Ya, or it is the intricate and detailed explanations offered by physics, cosmology, and geology.
The world? Really, the world. The giant globe of NATURE you say can't be explained by natural means. Something tells me you know NOTHING about atoms, charges, entropy, cells, organisms, etc. If you did you'd probably feel as bad as I do for you.
Andrew Sackett at 11:32pm March 19
If you knew anything about atoms, charges, entropy, cells, organisms, etc. you would see the beuty of them and the wonderful intricacy of them.
I guess what this really comes down to is whether the world was created, or is just there, and works in a way that is efficient. It just doesnt make sense to me that a world so perfectly designed could ... Read Morenot be designed at all. Who taught the planets and stars to create a gravitational force? Thats a question that splits the two of us apart. I believe, while you can only see whats tangible. But to think that our minds, which are so limited, could explain the universe is a personal choice, and one that causes much conflict between atheists and Christians. If you want to believe that the world was a coincidence, and that we are all here by chance, than go ahead, but im not about to jump on that bandwagon any time soon.
Nick P. at 11:36pm March 19
You are utterly hopeless. I suffer your ignorance.
Hannah Norton at 8:37am September 24
This has always been confusing to me as well. The best answer that I can come up with is: we won't completely understand this side of heaven, and that's where trust comes in.
But what I do understand is this: God is a God of Love and a God of Justice. He loves us so much that He's provided a way for everyone to go to heaven. But He also loves us so much that He gives us free will and is not going to impose His on us. So then each person in the world has a choice. We can choose to accept or reject His gift. If we accept it, we have forgiveness and peace with God. If we reject it, we cannot live in the presence of a Holy God because of His justice.
As for sovereignty and predestination. The Bible also says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I think his predestination (or forknowledge) is simply Him knowing before the foundation of the world who would choose Him and who would reject Him. ... Read More
That's whats helped me anyhow
Nick P. at 6:43pm October 5
I would say that hell is a way of "imposing" his will. Believe or burn make a choice? There is no freedom there.
For Hannah's sentence ""God is not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance" is an inherent gap in reasoning for me. If God wills something how can it not happen? If he wills you to repend, your repenting otherwise it wouldn't have its godly power.
Your note centers around a questions thats been asked for thousands of years and the most famous quote is this:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus
Andrew Sackett at 12:03pm March 18
Hey Ben,
God IS all loving and all caring. Regardless of what he does know and what he "chooses not to know", in some theories, he will always be there for those with faith in him. We cant even begin to imagine what he's like or what he will do next. We cannot know how he works and how he sometimes chooses not to work. To waste our lives searching for those questions without answers is complete foolishness.
What we do know is that God is present. Whether you want to try and blame that on coincidence or not, its true. And we also know that the name of Jesus Christ still holds tremendous power after 2000 years. We know that with pure faith in God, comes joy in the purest form. We know that faith in nothing often leads to bitter lonliness in countless people.... Read More
So that being said, stop trying to solve and understand God. Our minds are limited and are not made to understand anything that is unlimited. We cannot understand God, because if we could, He wouldnt be God.
Nick P. at 5:18pm March 18
"We cant even begin to imagine what he's like or what he will do next." "What we do know is that God is present."
You are a liar and you contradict yourself. Please fix this.
"We cannot know how he works and how he sometimes chooses not to work."... Read More
And yet your faith in jesus stemming from the bible, god's rule book, people like yourself tend to claim they "know god' in such a way.
Andrew Sackett at 5:23pm March 18
Please explain the "liar" title and the contradiction, none seems to be present to me. And please explain "people like yourself." You can disagree with me if you'd like, just do it clearly
Ben Cabe at 5:51pm March 18
haha wow I wrote this two years ago -- why the sudden comments? XD
I have partially, due to my own research and studies, acquired knowledge to answer this question and many others -- which I find far more fascinating. XD
Ben Cabe at 6:05pm March 18
...Also, when I wrote this I didn't do a good job of explaining or coming at it from every different angle -- I feel foolish when I read my words of any of my notes on facebook xD
I would write another, but I am going to save it for my book.
Nick P. at 8:49pm March 18
The contradiction: "We can't even begin to imagine what he's like" against "knowing" he is present. Your either lying about our ability to know what he's like, or about knowing that he is present.
I may have overstepped by not asking first if in fact in you believe in the bible and to what degree. Taking for granted you did based on your comment ... Read Moreabout jesus, I cited another example of your inherent contradiction by you trusting and/or knowing something about the god you stated "We can't even begin to imagine what he's like or what he will do next."
Andrew Sackett at 11:42am March 19
knowing that hes there but not knowing what he's like is not a contradiction, it may take a little extra to wrap your mind around it, but still makes perfect sense.
And yes, i believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and dont see anything that comes close to logically proving it wrong
Nick P. at 5:50pm March 19
Knowing something about your god would imply that his presence would at the very lease illicit some sort of tangible or describable feeling. To say you begin to imagine what he's like, is to barre yourself from even claiming "he's like a warm fuzzy feeling in my stomach" let alone going farther and using his "un-imaginability" to understand his ... Read Morerange of morally skewed acts in the bible.
I think if you haven't see anything that's come close to proving it wrong your simply lazy. Also, maybe haven't read the creation myths or, and this would be mind-blowing, think there was a global flood. If such is the case I'll state for the record to anybody reading my replies that I will know and appreciate the time I'm potentially wasting on someone who thinks those are logical precepts.
Andrew Sackett at 9:59pm March 19
and what do u believe in, that the world is billions of years old, and even though people have been around for many millions of years, they have failed to evolve to the point of even discovering fire for millions of years into their existence? A little far-fetched, and a bit more requiring in faith than even me believing in God creating the world ... Read Moreand loving us.
And I still dont quite get the explanation to the contradiction. Why is anything but the tangible believable to you? Why can't there be something that is not tangible, or explainable, just there. For example, anxiety is a general feeling that is not seen, and cannot be described and i havent heard one psychologist try and say that it doesnt exist. The psychologists can only see the effects of the anxiety, and yet still believe it. There are countless signs of God's presence here on earth, and to discredit those just because you dont understand the source doesnt make sense to me. The results are blatantly clear.
Nick P. at 11:06pm March 19
LOL, thank you for telling me all I need to know about you with your reply. No, I don't believe humans have been around millions of years, more so about 195,000.
I like how you utterly ignore what I presented to you and resorted to a very obtuse conjecture and attack on what it is I "believe." I don't have to "believe" in the age of the earth. It's a fact. A key word you'd do well to understand is evidence. It takes zero faith to accept a fact.
The fact that you still don't get the contradiction is yet another reason for me not to bother. I can't spell it out for you in any language but English. Try reading slower...?... Read More
Anxiety manifests in people's heart rate, sweat glands, brain activity, body movements, etc. It's isn't some ephemeral idea that' just "there" without evidence or reasons to call it anxiety. I will never understand how someone can tell me something can't be described then literally in the next sentence tell me it has effects.
Nick P. at 11:10pm March 19
Aw heck, for the lulz please tell us the evidence for your god's presence, but only if you tell me they aren't descriptions as well as explain how they are utterly impossible by natural means. :)
Andrew Sackett at 11:12pm March 19
God in his nature cant be described, but you can see his effects everywhere. The world for example. Do you really think such an intricate system of atoms, charges, entropy, cells, organisms, etc. was just there. I think it was a clear design by a being far above our realm of understanding.
Nick P. at 11:21pm March 19
You can't claim that there's a being beyond our understanding because you do indeed have a world which we can in fact understand.
Is it really that illogical to think something can be described in terms of how it effects the world around it? Invisible pink unicorns can't "really" be described in their nature. Why do I bring them up? What do they ... Read Morematter? They don't! And neither do your statements about your god. If invisible pink unicorns make leaves shake on trees, I'm going to think wind is more likely. Hell, maybe they created the earth too! Ya, or it is the intricate and detailed explanations offered by physics, cosmology, and geology.
The world? Really, the world. The giant globe of NATURE you say can't be explained by natural means. Something tells me you know NOTHING about atoms, charges, entropy, cells, organisms, etc. If you did you'd probably feel as bad as I do for you.
Andrew Sackett at 11:32pm March 19
If you knew anything about atoms, charges, entropy, cells, organisms, etc. you would see the beuty of them and the wonderful intricacy of them.
I guess what this really comes down to is whether the world was created, or is just there, and works in a way that is efficient. It just doesnt make sense to me that a world so perfectly designed could ... Read Morenot be designed at all. Who taught the planets and stars to create a gravitational force? Thats a question that splits the two of us apart. I believe, while you can only see whats tangible. But to think that our minds, which are so limited, could explain the universe is a personal choice, and one that causes much conflict between atheists and Christians. If you want to believe that the world was a coincidence, and that we are all here by chance, than go ahead, but im not about to jump on that bandwagon any time soon.
Nick P. at 11:36pm March 19
You are utterly hopeless. I suffer your ignorance.
Nick
P.
at 11:43pm March 19
Andrew
Sackett at 11:38pm March 19
sounds like a resolution! =)
sounds like a resolution! =)
Amanda
Velasquez
at 11:46pm March 19
stop
being so cool
Billy
Bowman
at 10:42pm March 22
In
regards to the anxiety metaphor:
Well maybe God is simply the manifestation of all the effects we see around us in the world, like existence! Perhaps we could even devout ourselves to studying these wondrous intricacies in some vain attempt to better understand God, by studying his effects. There could be priests that would be best educated on... Read More the various studies of His greatness!
...Or maybe we already do. And instead of God, we call it the universe. And it's effects we call the laws of nature. And they call it's study science. And it's priests we call scientist. And in our vain attempt, we have succeeded in understanding some, and don't claim to know everything. And at this point we realize this young man has just proved our own argument via his anxiety metaphor.
Well maybe God is simply the manifestation of all the effects we see around us in the world, like existence! Perhaps we could even devout ourselves to studying these wondrous intricacies in some vain attempt to better understand God, by studying his effects. There could be priests that would be best educated on... Read More the various studies of His greatness!
...Or maybe we already do. And instead of God, we call it the universe. And it's effects we call the laws of nature. And they call it's study science. And it's priests we call scientist. And in our vain attempt, we have succeeded in understanding some, and don't claim to know everything. And at this point we realize this young man has just proved our own argument via his anxiety metaphor.
Byron
R. Turner II
at 11:53am March 23
Nick,
just to let you know I have seen" heaven", had a
"religious" experience, and have heared "god "talk
to me. I'll talk to you later about that more in detail. What I can
tell you here is that it is a incrediable easy thing to manifest and
that anyone who truly believes they "know" anything about
the Big Sky Daddy is are truly a weak minded individual. Hit me up
later and I will tell you what "truth" they are seeing and
hearing and knowing.
Nick
P.
at 2:19pm March 23
Will
do.
And yes Mr. Bowman, just yes.
And yes Mr. Bowman, just yes.
David
M.L. Jaffe
at 8:40am March 24
Sigh...
Religious freaks... They should really sit in on some science classes
and educate themselves.
